INT: I don’t think I need to ask this, the script you first read and the script you shoot, there is continual evolution on the way, never gets static?
AP: No, the nearest thing was THE MIRACLE WORKER, came across with the dissatisfied feeling that I didn’t respect cinema enough to let it have its life.

INT: One thing I read is whether you move scenes around. The undertaker scene in BONNIE AND CLYDE was later but you moved it. Was that after you shot it?
AP: No that was before, that was the work with BOB TOWNE. We thought the family reunion scene, lovely scene, that was a more sentimental scene earlier. So what we did is we had FAYE understand about the imminence of death. Clyde tries to bowl the mother, she tells him he wont live long. She was just a school teacher, but she was wonderful.

INT: I get the feeling, you are on the writer's side, have you ever involved them in casting sessions?
AP: Often, I do seek that kind of collaboration that I have come to know from the theater, or from those early days in television. [INT: Strange anomaly now where the writer in film is at his weakest, in TV the writer runs the show. Do you think the compulsion to bring in other writers to rewrite is necessary?] I really don't like it. I don't think I've done it. Did it once only because the original writer was not available.

INT: One other script question. NIGHT MOVES, was that an adaptation or an original?
AP: Original. It was originally the dark tower by ALAN SHARPE. It was well written but something about it I never understood. For him the dark tower meant UNIVERSAL. Somewhere in all of that it contained the slings and arrows of a bad experience there. What we did on that was we essentially changed it to a detective story but then we introduced exotic tropics. Then I said you know what we have to do, we have to solve this detective story without language. I don't want "here is how it happened." I want it to be a series of images, and have the images tell us who did it. That meant we had to work backwards. That's how that film emerged. It emerged backward. Started with a good script. ALAN worked it backwards from that conceit. At its center it was about the detective who cant solve his own life and can't solve the crime. [INT: The final image with the boat, is that your take on where the detective is?] Yeah. [INT: Do you think HACKMAN dies?] No, I think he is gone.

INT: I had to fight pretty hard at the end. I didn't know what MEMENTO or MULHOLLAND DRIVE is about. Do you enjoy making the audience do work to understand the movie?
AP: D did it with that film, it was done with an abiding sense of despair. It was done after the assassinations and I worked with the KENNEDYs, JACK with NIXON, and Bobby before he went to California. In MLK, there is that wonderful line, "where were you when Kennedy was shot?” I didn't want it to be simplistic. It was a world view in a way. A larger view. [INT: That, although its leavened with a lot of comedy, LITTLE BIG MAN makes similar statements about who wants to live in world that doesn't make sense. You don't seem like a pessimistic person, but did you go through a dark time with what was happening in America? I did. Little big man was always, for me, the holocaust. I couldn't get myself to make a film that was specifically holocaust. [INT: Vietnam to a degree] Yeah, those images were very strong. Then American Indians with one betrayal after another. There is still a ludicrous photograph where they are putting the finishing touches on a casino. What have we done? Civilization, we diminished it. I don't mean we as Americans, I mean we as people of this world. Everybody does it.

INT: Aspects of preproduction, two different methods of casting. You worked with HACKMAN, NEWMAN, HOFFMAN, BEATTY, NICHOLSON, REDFORD, DUVALL, hardly anybody you haven't worked with. How did you manage to get all these people?
AP: In every aspect they were actors who came from the theater. there was a respect for directors. Beginning of the popular image of film school directors. I take nothing away from FRANCIS FORD COPPOLA and GEORGE LUCAS, but there was a distinct difference. These actors preferred directors who spoke the language. [INT: It's an impressive role call] When I look back I'm bewildered at how it occurred.

INT: On the other side, what fascinates me is the number of movies where you take a chance on your leading lady. FAYE had done very little, ALEXANDRA STUART, PAQUIN, SUSAN CROFT, KATHLEEN LLOYD, whatever happened to them. How did you find them and have the nerve to push the boat out?
AP: KATHLEEN LLOYD, I never understood why she didn't have a better career. She was feisty and unconventional, held her own with JACK NICHOLSON ALICE'S RESTAURANT. SUSAN CLARK married ALEX CARRAS, famous football player in BLAZING SADDLES, I think they still live in Hollywood. I don't think she gave it up. The ALEXANDRA story is funny. I was about to do MICKEY ONE with WAREN BEATTY, I had EVETTE ready to go, about four days before we were to start shooting MGM exercised an option, took her off the picture and put her on something else. I had no lady. I had seen of LOUIS MALLE called FOXFIRE, I saw this stunning girl. I call LOUIS, didn't get him. I called TRUFFAUT, figured they all knew her. I said, “How is she?” He said she was terrific. I hired her like that. She was not a really good actress, she admits it, I was fairly bewildered by that. How could TRUFFAUT recommend it? I got word he was coming to visit us, she was his lady. GODARD came and visited. It was a little new wave influence. Years later I saw her in Paris, she had a baby with LOUIS MALLE. We were all close and friendly. [INT: Did you have to fight battles to cast them?] ANNE BANCROFT was the biggest battle. She had no film career, five or six films before SEESAW.

INT: Now with your background in theater I would think a lot of your casting is marvelous support casting, those are guys you know well. How do you handle auditions and screen tests?
AP: I don’t think I've ever done a screen test. [INT: What do you look for in your audition?] Something irreverent, unexpected and unpredicted. A non word actor. Someone who looks around. So many unfortunately have been brought up to believe that if you speak the words clearly that is all that is asked for. Point of fact, that's the last thing I care about. I would rather have someone impertinent. The first thing out of ANNE BANCROFT's mouth was "Where is the john?" You just had to think this is a woman meeting a producer, she was who she was.

INT: Compared to theater, do you rehearse much?
AP: No, I really only rehearsed twice, once on LEFT HANDED GUN, we weren't allowed to but NEWMAN wanted to. We did it on the sly, WARNERS wouldn’t pay for it. The other time was on THE CHASE. I just plain didn’t know what to do. Rehearsal for a movie, breathtaking actors sitting around a table. [INT: Difficult film to rehearse] Disconnected rather than connected. The thing you might want is an ensemble, here we wanted the reverse of that. [INT: On BONNIE AND CLYDE you didn't even have a week? Would you like it? Had they done their work?] No, what happened was because we didn't have rehearsal time with such a low budget, FAYE was coming in where she had some weight on. She was on a water diet. Not eating a morsel. Didn't shoot the close-ups right off the bat. I thought, “How do I shoot the first shot of the film?” Then the thing that an actor does, which is an appetite. Hook someone's mouth. Then the appetite and frustration began to prevail. Opens the window naked, except we were covered. So many people swore she was naked, it wasn't true.

INT: That’s interesting, with the theater background that you don’t feel the need to rehearse. How much time do you take to block and set up a scene?
AP: Unless it’s a scene I have a fix on, like the family reunion scene, because I wanted that to have the feeling of the old photograph. On the whole I leave it alone, let the actors dictate where they want to go. Then I start laying out the shots. I don't come in with a storyboard or anything. That's part of the whole improvisatory nature of the early days of television. Improvising like mad. What happened was I realized the actors are superb. [INT: Their instincts.] Are wonderful. There is a scene in MISSOURI BREAKS where MARLON comes in. A man has been killed, someone lying in a coffin of ice in the heat. BRANDO came in, massaging his face for a "bad tooth," he walked over to the casket and took a piece of ice. [INT: Did he wait for the camera to run to do that?] Yes. You got to love it.

INT: Let's move on to crew picking, it's interesting, you work with a different director of photography. Do you cast him?
AP: When I can. In Hollywood pictures you have to have a cameraman who is available when you are ready to go. That has had a serious effect on a couple of films. [INT: Very hard to pick a camera. Do you go by show reels?] I prefer to meet. Each director wants to do it a different way, the astonishing good look of SAM RAIMI's film. [INT: SPIDERMAN?] No, ROAD TO PERDITION. [INT: That's SAM MENDES.] Yes, with CONNIE HALL. Beautifully shot. I didn't like the film one bit. NEWMAN was wonderful, looked wonderful. That sort of thing is hard to tell. RAIMI was concentrating on the look and lost track of the story.

INT: Which of the DPs did you find the best to work with, contributed the most or understood the vision the best?
AP: BUTLER, MISSOURI BREAKS. But then he went off and did commercial directing. Made such a great living he never went back. Tried to lure him back, couldn't get him. I met a good Danish guy, JAN WEINCKE. Pure accident, a picture I had nothing to do with that I ended up directing. Don't do anybody a favor.

INT: Can you talk about BONNIE AND CLYDE? Your DP got the OSCAR for that.
AP: We got along very well for the most part, [INT: What problems did you have because it looked great?] It looked great, what happened was I kept saying BERNIE turn off the lights. I had such a bad experience on THE CHASE where JOE LESCHO lit everything. BRANDO would have to shoot a night scene at 1 in the morning. I hadn't chosen the guy, he was part of the SPIEGEL package, considerable reputation. It was deadly. The actors were paying the price. BERNIE was very good. One scene in particular. The scene before GENE HACKMAN dies, the only lighting is the headlights. I kept saying to BERNIE, “turn off the other stuff.” It upset him so, he was so much of a gentlemen that his ulcer began to bleed. He went into the hospital for three days. He just couldn't understand that it would be alright if they went into the black. [INT: That's easier to find nowadays.]

INT: What about, I know the DP lines up shots, but do you find the relationship to be more crucial?
AP: More crucial than the cinematographer. I won't have a television set on the camera, I think that’s an abomination. I watched young directors do it. Looking at the monitor and not the actors. Actors left on set like a desert island. There is an amount of stroking that has to go on. Acting is such a courageous act. No matter what all of us does, we still have to step back from the camera and leave them there. They need to feel they are protected and primary and all of that. I don't understand this. I think its one of the great abominations of film schools. [INT: Coupled with the film schools lack of acting teaching, 75% don't know how to talk to actors.] They are aggressive or indicative or pay no attention. I hear actors complain about what it's like to be treated this way.

INT: How about the design side, costume and production?
AP: Lovely side. I have a great friend who is no longer able to work. GEORGE JENKINS. We worked in theater and film. Went way back, JOE MESSIER, I think he did THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES. Wonderful man who understood the material. This wasn't his design, it was always in support. I had the great good fortune. We had so much work together. [INT: How did you work together, sketches or models?] With theater, he did models. [INT: I find them helpful.] They're wonderful, big help in the theater. You're locked in this damn one shot. Then we came to do BONNIE AND CLYDE and BOB JIRAS, a make up man, was a great friend of WARREN's, GEORGE was not available. In any event, the DGA said there is a guy who is drafting named DEAN TAVOULARIS. Then he did LITTLE BIG MAN. Then FRANCIS came in and kidnapped him. Brilliant designer. [INT: I think again if you have a theater background that would insure the physical look of the thing. It may only be for one scene, but its still worth spending time.]

INT: Do you have a major preference between sound stage and locations?
AP: Location every time. Sound stage shooting is just sterile. That was part of the agony of THE CHASE too. We were at COLUMBIA, all inside. SAM SPIEGEL wouldn’t go to Texas. [INT: Where did you go for the great finale?] Right there in Hollywood. It was tough. That's all on the Warners backlot.

INT: What about costume, are you big on costume?
AP: Again, on BONNIE AND CLYDE I was lucky, I didn’t know THEODORA, I think WARREN picked her and she did a wonderful job. I worked with DOROTHY JEAKINS, ALBERT WOLSKY, RUTH MORLEY, wonderful people. [INT: I find if I got someone I really trust, I don't actually want to go and look at everything.] Exactly, I would rather see you in it than at sketches. Very rare that these kind of costume designers make mistakes of any magnitude.

INT: The last crew person I want to talk about is first ADs. How do you pick them?
AP: It's one of the toughest jobs around. I was fortunate, RUSS SAUNDERS was AD on LEFT HANDED GUN. He was old time. Worked for many people. When I would say “We'll do this in one shot” he would say “Cover it.” He turned out to be the guy on BONNIE AND CLYDE, when I had that scene where C.W. parks the car and a guy runs on the running board, SAUNDERS did it. Nobody would do it. Moving car with a mattress. It's all one shot. I was desperate, he loved the idea of it. Stuntman wanted a cut, I said the essence has to be “we are with the guy.”

INT: Have you ever had problems with a first AD?
AP: Yes, bad ADs are first of all negative. That’s not the way it's done. Orthodoxy is the thing I hate most. I've had a couple of them, whose own backgrounds were limited. Never got past that with them. Consequently I went and took that part of the crew over and did it myself. You can't have that on the set. [INT: Also can't have somebody who doesn't get along with actors.] You have to have a rapport on a different level than the one with the director. It's necessary in an ensemble of that sort where people's feelings are on a set, they can say it to a good first and then steer the director another way.

INT: Is scheduling exciting to you, working with the first AD?
AP: Yeah, I don’t think anyone can schedule for a director. [INT: Kinda quirky.] Exactly. Or let's do this one right up front, start the picture with a big shot. There are different films, personal and sensitive, others you need a team. That's why when you asked about the operator, if you get the right guy he gives you a hand.

INT: What about, how involved do you want to be with the budget?
AP: I want to know not in detail, but I want to know how many days I have to shoot. I can do a film very fast as I'm sure all of us who came out of television know how to do it. We did an hour in a few days. We would come into the studio on Saturday, and go on the air Sunday night. That's the kind of training that belongs to that. I like to know the round nut of the budget but I don't know the details.

INT: Have you ever in terms of schedule - how do you work out whether you got enough days?
AP: I really do a pretty honest schedule then we stick to it. I really feel an obligation. Unless you get on LITTLE BIG MAN, like I described. I kept saying to the studio guys we should shoot it without the snow, they said they wanted it. This was well before the days before you could make convincing snow.

INT: Have you ever traded shooting days to get money to put somewhere else?
AP: I think I probably did. I do in every picture. You squeeze. I keep saying that it's making a bargain with the devil. You wouldn’t say “I'm going to take it from here and put it here.” It's sight unseen, and it should merit depriving someone else or some other scene.

INT: Let's move onto the shoot itself, how do you prepare the night before the first day of shooting?
AP: Nervously, [INT: SAM PECKINPAH used to have a drunken party I believe.] I don’t do that, I don’t really feel uncomfortable. I feel as if at last we are here. [INT: You never know until the day before.] That's really rather gratifying. I don't feel anxious. I get anxious somewhere in the middle of the picture. As TRUFFAUT says in DAY FOR NIGHT, you start out like a masterpiece, and halfway through you're trying to get it finished. It's that middle trek up the mountain that is so hard. [INT: Particularly with a long shoot.] Nothing more physically debilitating than directing films. You absorb the actor's anxiety, your own, physically you're on your feet. [INT: Lose weight though.]

INT: Now you answered this question, but you don’t do storyboards or shot lists. Once you’ve decided the way you shoot, do you have a list in your head on the way you're going to cover it?
AP: Yeah pretty much. I call in the DP, and then we start. I say which is going to be the most convenient. We sort of figure it out rationally with the expertise of a good gaffer. Slowly bring the team in to watch. [INT: And the question of movement, an elaborate tracking or steadicam shot, is that on the moment when you see the scene?] Yes, I don't favor those very much. [INT: BONNIE AND CLYDE, when they first meet.] That's track. [INT: What about later on in the town, you pan over stuff, find C.W.'s dad. Were you panning and tracking?] No panning, I thought everything should be out of focus, then see who Sheriff Hamer is talking to you know that the finger has pointed. [INT: What I love is you're pretty sure its Sheriff Hamer but it's the dad. Now do you use steadicam much?] No I was doing films when steadicam wasn't the most reliable thing in the world. They were huge, a lot of things they couldn't do. Now I would probably use them. [INT: What's interesting now is the DP's trying to get back on the track again. It's out of mode now.] I respect that, I think that's a better look unless you're going for a nervous feel. [INT: I don't know if you saw GREENGRASS film BLOODY SUNDAY, they did that almost newsreel.]

INT: How much preparation do you do each night, sit and look at scenes?
AP: What we did on BONNIE AND CLYDE is we would finish the day shooting, say let's have dinner, get together in the motel where we were all staying in Dallas, and then do the next days work together, all of us. Talking through the scene, once or twice. We wouldn't do anything like the set. That worked very well. [INT: Then you go in the next day and start moving?] Yeah, then it would be in a place they had never seen before. They would use that. They would be the scene.

INT: This is maybe an unanswerable question, do you find with different actors you have different means of communicating with them?
AP: Absolutely, so many languages. Some you can be clear and rational. This is your objective, you tell me what it is. Or others you have to cajole. So many body languages, spoken languages. Most of all it's ineffable. You have no language for it. I think you get an idea. Quite often it's something they show you. What can I say without over rationalizing it? It's so deeply collaborative.

INT: Did you, I read in reports of BONNIE AND CLYDE, that WARREN is argumentative, does that come from working it through?
AP: Partly, it's partly his own anxiety. [INT: Does he resist or does he want to keep talking about it?] His uncertainties take various forms. "I don't know, this sounds funny." What you are doing is slowly investing him in that role for the moment. You can't impose your own psychology over theirs. [INT: There are some actors work from a deliberate assumption of stupidity, "I don't get it." They rationally get it but they don't feel it.

INT: Who of actors you’ve worked with, who have you found you could use the most short hand with, you can get through the fastest?
AP: NICHOLSON, BRANDO. Cause BRANDO, once you have a pre shooting discussion as we did on MISSOURI BREAKS, he said I should be an Indian. I said, “No MARLON, we're not going to do that yet.” He said he didn't know the guy, I said, “Take that as the essence of the guy.” [INT: That era of the multi-personalities.] Once he latched on I would be surprised every morning. Once he said get me a dress, and that was the scene where he killed HARRY DEAN STANTON. Then he started to be granny. He is tempting, this guy. Killed the rabbit, when you see him do it, now he has Harry Dean and he's playing with him.

INT: Don’t answer this if you don’t want to. The one day you had with Mr. LANCASTER, was he impossible through the day?
AP: No not at all. What that was point of fact was a conspiracy on his part with JOHN FRANKENHEIMER. We actually, BURT and I, spent the morning shooting perfectly fine. Very easy little scene. We had lunch. He was telling me about his children who was under treatment at a hospital. We finished the day quite amicably. Then I went home and WALTER BERNSTEIN who was brought in for rewriting, he said I was off the picture. I cast him, brought the property, it was a dead one. I took it and thought there was a story. I remembered things from my own experience of seeing art pieces. Years later, FRANKENHEIMER with whom I had been quite friendly. When he got to Paris, he never called me. That's an obligation of friendship but also the DGA, if you're replacing a director you're obliged to call and speak to them. It's a very civilized attitude, it never happened. Years later, JOHN asked if we could have lunch. He told me about difficulties he was having during that period. An apology based on an addiction. [INT: The project we've been talking about was THE TRAIN.] I got JEANNE MOREAU, PAUL SCOFIELD, got them all together, then I was off the picture.